Exclusion of individuals because "not wanted"
-
I am referring to this thread because it is not wanted that people write there:
http://virtuaali.net/keskusta/topic/761/vrl-ehdotukset/25?page=2I am very disappointed because I am affected by this. ALL my horses have been deleted from the Finnish register WITHOUT COMMENT. I was not contacted by PM or any other way. And after reading all this translated here with the translator, I am stunned at how THRILLED you can be as an admin team.
We German simmers welcome, no matter who, whether Finns, Swedes, Americans, etc. with open arms - they are allowed to use everything, our register, participate in tournaments, simply EVERYTHING. And the reverse is true for people who only have password protection. That is simply the bottom drawer. And it also shows that there are just some people in the admin team who are literally "sitting it out".
And again to explain:
We do NOT use password protection to steal images, use them illegally or anything else. We are merely separating reality from our fantasy world. And it's sad that the worst is immediately assumed.If the admin team does not comment on this or change their rules, withdraw them or generally become more open to other communities, I will also have to take action.
In concrete terms, this means that I will withdraw from the Finnish community and that all people who use my archive with my photos will also withdraw.I am very sorry for those who welcomed me with open arms, explained the Finnish side to me better and all those where I could participate in their tournaments without any problems(!!). It was really great and the communication was great! But don't get me wrong, I don't want to be part of a system where people are excluded just because a few people from the admin team say "we don't like ABX, so they can't play here".
It's a shame how quickly the tide can turn.
-
mentonied @VRL
-
I’m 100% behind you on this matter and ready to face possible consequences. Of course I hope the VRL team to come to some kind of conclusion - I don’t think it’s fair to make such big decisions without proper messaging to people who it may concern. Or at least a vote should’ve been taken place…
I agree with the password protection - it should be more widely used to separate sim stables and horses from the real world ones. I’ve heard it from some Finnish photographers as well. And if there’s pw protection and someone tries to take advantage of it by using illegal photos - shouldn't this individual be punished. I mean, everyone knows the pw combo anyway so it’s kinda stupid to even try something like that
If VRL stays on it’s current stand, I’m ready to take action to make Finnish SIM community more open. Whether by moving out of VRL and completely focusing on Vesländisches Pferderegister or even establishing a completely new alternative to VRL. In this case I’d need more people and back up but this is a new topic and discussion to be made.
-
I think the password makes sense, as you said to separate real from virtual - yes with some its more obvious, and VRL requires stables to write "virtual" on stables websites - but having a password that only us hobbyists know makes it pretty much fool proof. I think the argument of "hiding stolen photos" is old fashioned, and if that would be the case, we should educate those people just as we have done in the past.
Mainly wanted to say that I agree with you and I'm sorry all your horses got swept.
-
@footprints said in Exclusion of individuals because "not wanted":
I was not contacted by PM or any other way.
There's a discussion going on about this in a Finnish Discord group going on. I'm sorry this has happened to you.
Just to make completely sure that you didn't get any notifications in Pikaviestit-button at the top right of the screen in VRL about the horses?
-
@lithy Thank you for your answer.
I haven't been online on Virtuaalihevoset for a while, I just had a look this morning.
On 17.11.2023, 19:13 p.m. I get this message:
Hei! Tutustuthan VRL:n sääntöihin, sillä huomasimme, että sivusi ovat kokonaan salasanasuojattuja. Sivut pitäisi vapauttaa salasanasuojauksesta tai hevoset sekä talli poistaa rekisteristämme.13 minutes earlier I got this message:
Hevosesi VH23-048-0071 poistettiin rekisteristä. Syy: Sivut salasanasuojattu. Salasanasuojaus on VRL:n sääntöjen vastaista.You can't just delete any horses because you suddenly rewrite the rules. There are horses that were already registered in September 2023 and everything was ok with the rules back then. Just because an admin thinks he/she is right.
And at the end of the day, I sometimes need the VH number to be able to take part in finnish tournaments.
-
I'm so sorry that it happened to you! I kinda understand the problematic behind usage of password because even thought it is "public" information, it might not be well known amongst the finnish sim-gamers. BUT I'm not saying that you are not welcome, I would prefer that we could find a way for getting ourselves more international and get more ways for everyone for the hobby.
I'm trying to say that there should be a way that all would be welcome wether the pages are password protected or not. Maybe a simple mini-page with all the needed information of the horse + how to log on to the original site which has the rest or for example a additional information box or something for the registration form on VRL where the login information could be added -> the registry workers AND other simmers could see it in the registry.
And about the "hiding stolen images" I also think that it's a bit out-dated. Of course there can and most likely will be illegal pictures as there has always been, but it can also happen with our finnish sites. You can never be sure that someone really has permission to use the photos. How could you? Ofc there is some photographers etc who some know that they don't give permissions but for example I know just one. Some might know more and some none. We just need to educate people if we notice the illegal pictures and then if they don't do better, they could be deleted from the registry if they can't prove that they have permission. Or something like that.
(I'm sorry if my text is a bit all over or hard to understand, not functioning great at the moment..)
-
@jaanak Thank you for your opinion.
In general I can't understand why people don't accept certain things. Swedes have what defines them, Finns have that, and the Germans have that. If we meet there, show tolerance, show transparency (e.g. the VRL also gets an English translation) - why we can't play together? This would be so much more fun if we all exchanged horses together, generated new breeding lines, etc.!
Your idea is nice and thank you for your thoughts. But with a stable of +200 horses (and there are more horses every year) I can't have my "main page" on one page and another 200 secondary pages on the side. Many of us Germans have bought our own domain, like me for example, and pay monthly for certain storage space. If I do +200 additional pages, then at some point my wallet will burst because I need more storage space. As well as the effort. And to put it simply: it's no fun because Finland needs an "extra sausage".
Hope you understood my thoughts....
-
I'm also so sorry that this has happened to you! That would be super frustrating and alienating to have multiple of your horses deleted without a warning or the possibility to discuss the matter. I hope you'll get a proper response from those involved. Deleting horses from the register without hearing the owner first, is not a correct approach if WRITTEN rules are suddenly changed. And if the rule is not present on the page listing the rules at the moment of registering, then the horse owner must be informed and given decent time to react to the changes. A few days, a month even, is not enough in my opinion. It should be a year, at least. I can only assume foreigners do not regularly monitor their VRL profile for new messages, anyway. I wouldn’t…
It’s unfortunate, but conflicts arise from different styles and customs between the countries. Finnish people are commonly known to be very strict and rule-following. This hobby has had a negative reputation in the past that affects it even to this day in forms of (sometimes too) cut-edging, harsh decisions and nit-picky rules. This is not an excuse, however. I would personally root for more laid-back attitude, especially in cases where after the speculation the subject is deemed not guilty of any malice or harm. For example, this password custom. I do not subscribe to the “prevention” idea that the punishment should precede the wrong doing. But I guess Finns are more likely to assume the worst (like, illegal use of photos) first than trusting the average hobbyist or the community, so therefore there’s unnecessary scrutiny over everything. And a pessimistic view like that is a bummer.
While I totally understand, I do hope that despite this huge inconvenience, you'd still reconsider your decision on withdrawing licences from all of Finnish community to your photo archives and further cooperation with us. We haven't collectively chosen this to happen to you (or to those few others besides you), and we are as flabbergasted and devastated as you. There’s some miscommunication and confusion going on even among us regarding this and other matters within our simming community. However, while I can't speak for anybody but myself, I'm certain that the majority of us do want to further develop the international sim-horsing between the countries and warmly welcome and include foreign hobbyists into the Finnish community. As you put it: why can’t we all just get along, play and have fun together!
-
@footprints Yes, I understand what you are saying and after my earlier post I realized the minipage is problematic also. (as said, my brain is not functioning great at the moment... :D) Maybe the "additional information -box" would be the best way to let everyone know about the login information!
As Lithy mentioned we have had a conversation about this issue in finnish sim-gamers' discord and as you, I and others have said there should be a way that we all can play together.
I also heard that german registry doesn't even require the horse's information in german/english and that's awesome!I really hope that VRL would be open to accepting the international horses also and there could be also be a possibility to forget the strict rules (althought we finns for some reason love them..) or at least modify them the way that it would be easier for other than finns to be a part of our systems. I and many others would welcome everyone as they and their sites are.
Maybe we all could learn thing or two from others... I really hope that people behind the VRL sees this and really thinks about the thing. I think that if this would be just the players' decision, there wouldn't be any problem.
-
I 100 % agree with you. I've tried to speak up against these archaic rules, but so far for nothing. To my understanding, only the minority like to keep the very strict rules about registering your horse(s) and stable(s), the rest are quite open minded for new people and their horses.
To give some background: Finnish people in general LOVE rules, and they like to implement them as much as possible. VRL was implemented about 20 (?) years ago, and most of those rules are from that time. Finns are also not super flexible, and in general, they can be somewhat old-fashioned. Often these kind of people like to judge before understanding and some people wrongly assumed, that passwords are for protecting illegal photos. For me it seems, that they don't even try to adjust, they just like to go on the same than they did 20 years ago.
Also, believe or not, Finns are shy to speak english. I guess couple people were threatened that people who don't understand finnish, are in our register. In my opinion, this is some backwater mentality, and it has no place here. If a person does not want to communicate in english, they can just ignore the "looking for buy / sell" topics and that's it?
To be frank, it was not only you - we've had these battles about "right" and "wrong" sim game horses within ourselves. For examples, some people were horrified that mules and donkeys could be in the same show ring than horses (even if the donkeys especially were going to participate the lowest levels, like 40 cm classes, only). It has also been a battle to get new breeds (actual existing horse breeds) to the list..
So my summary: Finnish VRL is not, at least at the moment, a place where you can freely join and have fun together - VRL is all about control and selecting the "proper" type of horses. The admins like to control what type of horses can join the register, because of the rules. Well, the rules can be unwritten, but maybe that is too radical hmmm. I actually happen to like VRL a lot, I think it has potential and I've met so many nice people from here. Maybe we could just actually ask ourselves a question - why VRL is such a control freak association?
I support your "photo strike", and hopefully at least someone from the admin team is going to wake up.
-
Did I understood right all of your horses were deleted from VRL and after that had happened you got DM from them why they all have been deleted? This can not simply happen... I understand if one horse is deleted during registeration check due mistake like wrong breed etc but delete them all before letting owner a chance to correct mistake this simply can not happen...
Furthermore I think we should take password protection requirement under review since people can have password protected websites for many reasons. However if this will be removed we need to figure out the way to inform horse registry workers what are correct passwords since not all know about them but it should be pretty simple if it would be added to instructions given to horse registry workers. There should definetly be vote for this tho since lot has changed since this rule was made.
Also since we have google translator nowadays we dont really need requirement for web pages to be finnish anymore since translating is so easy. However if current registry workers are not comfortable to use translator it could be idea to have couple volunteers to handle requests from other than finnish people.
Further question is if there even should be a check for registered horses anymore since horse registry is nowadays mainly a database to maintain finnish sim horse history. We should loosen it up a bit so also international sim-gamers feel welcome to our platforms. It is not good that they welcome us with open arms to their platforms but we end up excluding them....
-
@jaanak Yes, we germans are very welcoming and we're glad, if somebody is new at our forum. Also with our Register & the competitions. Of course we have a system too, but nobody would said "you haven't XYZ on your site, you are not allowed to play with us". Our register is open for everyone. Everyone can sign in und register the horses, plan matings with our randomizer and so on. I would like that from the Finns too. I understand, that every country has rules and their game schedule. We recently had the World Championships. Didn’t everything work smoothly in Sweden?
I'm very open for a constructive talk about this topic in generally. But I'll be sad if VRL doesn't take advantage of the opportunity.
@Jayde I'm glad to read your opinion. Well, I'm only one person from the german community. If you want to change something, I really like to support you all to do these things to good things.
@TuuliaT Yes, you understood right. I haven't received any messages here on Keskusta, including by email. And I'm daily here at the forum. At Virtuaalihevoset I'm sometimes online, the last log in was today and before a new weeks ago.
The uniform login for the password-protected pages is: user - arabians. Even in Sweden, Germany or America - it's the same. You can use that as a guide.
-
The uniform login for the password-protected pages is: user - arabians. Even in Sweden, Germany or America - it's the same. You can use that as a guide.
I think the easiest rule addition would be password protected websites are fine but they must have this login and nothing else. This would be fair for those that work at VRL so theyre able to check the stables/horses if need be
-
@may If Finland use the same password combination - that would be perfect!
And my suggestion is:
if someone use another password combination and the people at VRL can't open the horse site, then VRL is entitled to point out - after that - exclude the simmer.
But for everyone's sake, it just makes sense to stick to the password combination. The game doesn't work any other way. -
@alexiina-c said in Exclusion of individuals because "not wanted":
While I totally understand, I do hope that despite this huge inconvenience, you'd still reconsider your decision on withdrawing licences from all of Finnish community to your photo archives and further cooperation with us. We haven't collectively chosen this to happen to you (or to those few others besides you), and we are as flabbergasted and devastated as you. There’s some miscommunication and confusion going on even among us regarding this and other matters within our simming community. However, while I can't speak for anybody but myself, I'm certain that the majority of us do want to further develop the international sim-horsing between the countries and warmly welcome and include foreign hobbyists into the Finnish community. As you put it: why can’t we all just get along, play and have fun together!
I know it would be a shame if I revoked my photo license and I also know that many would see it as "revenge" if I did so.
And believe me: that is not in my interest! I don't take any money for the photos, you can use them under my transparent rules and have fun. But if you feel left out, then it's just no fun.Yes, I know that many people agree with me - which of course I'm very, very happy about. I hope we all find a solution for international simmers!